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maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

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maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Gilda on Sun May 15, 2011 11:11 pm

Hi Guys

I am making some researches and I've made some friends that have some knowledge about silicone dolls (Aiko's Body is basically silicone).
I'd like to share some points about mantainence of silicon bodies and how can be hard to keep a silicone doll in perfect conditions mainly because silicone is very sensible to sunlight, movimentation and this kind of skin tends to Silicone tends to crack and get bruised and ugly. Not durable.
We think that the robot will suffer constant friction when it is walking, sitting, moving his arms and so on.


Here is an exerpt of some posts in another forum. This forum is specializad in silicone dolls: ( I'l not post the link here because it has adult conteud):

"depending on how you're getting the doll, new or used, there are some basic things that you will need.

First off, is a low stress place to store her! By low stress I mean a place where the doll can reside in as close to the pose it was in when it came out of the mold and without any hard pressure on any one spot. This could be a hanging position with pads between the body and arms and some type of padded leg spreader or a soft foam pad or mattress. Laying down will require a pad under the small of the back and under the knees to alleviate any pressure on the butt and avoid flattening.

Next, a cleaning kit of some sort for the doll's orifices. Most dolls come with this but a used (previously enjoyed) doll may not. Anything that squirts large volumes of water and a sponge on a stick or a bottle brush will do. Antibacterial liquid hand soap for a cleaning agent.

Some clear household silicone will be needed for the inevitable little nicks and scratches. For repair techniques consult ODC, as there is a plethora of skilled doll surgeons here to help.

If things go very bad, you may need a socket set (Consult the manufacturer for SAE or Metric), disposable razor knife, two-part silicone repair kit, staples, electrical tape, and a Dremel Motor Tool with assorted bits. Most people never need these.

A rolling office chair is indispensable for moving dolls. And always, plan your moves keeping in mind not to drag or ram the hands or feet into anything in the process. A woman will work with you to keep you from dropping her, a doll will not.
"

or

" I know there are a jillion questions but seriously its not as bad as you think.

1st... finger pokes. on older Tin RDs its a fact of life so get used to it. It can be avoid with careful movements. Most of the time its due to the owner moving doll around the room and bumping the hand into a chair, table, or not watching where the hand is when putting her back down. I carry my dolls bride style with the hands in the lap. Now that still can give pokes due to the hands ending up in btwn the legs at times but mostly its not a huge deal. Some people have put oven mittens on them before moving. It all depends on what is easier for you while moving and then make adjustments as you see fit. Some people have taken the wires out altogether even.

2nd. Climate control. yes prolly not a good idea to keep near a open heat vent during storage or anytime for that matter. Sunshine? They can take it. Remember, many people heat their dolls with e-blankets so they can take a nice slow heat. Most of silicone bleaching issues I heard were due to long term storage (weeks, months)and the sun beating on them constantly. But taking her outside on a nice summer day is no problem as many people's pictures have shown.

3rd. Clothing. Yes they can be stored wearing clothing but make sure its nothing tight. If you want figure showing clothing then anything thin and stretchy is your best bet. You can put her in clothing that has straps or wires but only do so for a few hrs and even then it can be risky as the straps/wires can leave a indentation in the skin that will be a PITA to come out. Lets just put it this way. If its tight, then only for a short time (few hrs) and NEVER for storage.
Most of the time clothing should be a size or so larger than what her measurements say is ok to fit.

At the end of the day its all on how you treat her. They're not built for severe abusive use but they aren't 'one touch fall apart' either. Most of the care is common sense and many times you find that you over-worried. Just keep reading and asking questions. Eventually, you'll be the one answering the next noobs care questions."


Well, there is a lot of questions about how to keep a doll safe.
Transforming a doll in an android ( male or female) brings this problems to us.

So, any suggestion?



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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Kal-el on Mon May 16, 2011 12:33 pm

I think the outer layer(skin) should be made from something natural not synthetic like silicone or other oil derived materials.

Cow skin would do the trick, it's pretty durable and not very expensive.

But underneath that skin there needs to be something soft like silicone or other materials like that.

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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Discoman on Tue May 17, 2011 12:14 am

i recall something about the silicone skin on actroid and repliee basically melting at the joints after a couple years.
can't find the article again, it was on some sort of wiki page, not wikipedia.
but they discussed how androids using silicone needed re-skinning every couple years.
sounds like that could get expensive quickly.

figured this fit in well with the care of silicone theme this thread has.
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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  ico on Tue May 17, 2011 6:47 am

"I'l not post the link here because it has adult content"

post the link
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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Gilda on Tue May 17, 2011 10:47 am

OK Ico. Your wish is an order to me. Wink

This is the site about dolls. There is lot of information about silicone dolls here ( female and male)... Again I advise that it's an adult forum. ok?

http://ourdollcommunity.com/

The especific thread about silicone dolls care ( here you have lot's of content about repair and injuries on silicone dolls) :
http://ourdollcommunity.com/forum/index.php?board=2.0


I also post a pool 2 days ago in this forum about The possibility of the market of androids, maybe the answers can help Trung to know if there is a a market to androids and what kind of android people (who has no prejudice about artificial humans) want :
http://ourdollcommunity.com/forum/index.php?topic=2304.0

I hope it can help Aiko building

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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  ico on Tue May 17, 2011 5:12 pm

the question isn't if there is a market for android sex dolls but how much would they pay for it
maybe you can ask them how much would they pay
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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Aiko on Tue May 17, 2011 6:55 pm

Hi

To answers your questions.
Yes, silicone do go bad after 5 years.
It's more like it de-graded to like "melting".

Unfortunetely that is the side effect of using silicone.
Aiko V1 is starting to "melt" slowly.
It's very sad, but it is a fact.

That is why breast implant in woman, they have to replace a new implant every 5-7 years.
Because it stated to "melt" or broke... if you want to call it that way.
And if it start leaking, it will cause cancer, and damage other tissues through lymph node and blood vessel.


As for flubber materials.... it is basically glucose compound. What do you think happen when you contact gluocse with water or heat for a long time.
And beside it doesn't feel as real as silicone.
I had play around with flubber a few years ago at Hanson robotic....it was nice of him to let me be there.
it has advantage and disadvantage. Nevertheless, I hope he is doing well.

As for my opinion, silicone has higher heat resistance and it feel better, that is why I am still using silicone.
Silicone is in the same group as C in the periodic table, with 4 electron valences... maybe that is why people still use silicone as human skin replacement.
Unless, they have some new material that I don't know of.

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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Discoman on Tue May 17, 2011 8:17 pm

ico wrote:the question isn't if there is a market for android sex dolls but how much would they pay for it
maybe you can ask them how much would they pay
well, a sex doll costs about $10,000 for a 'realistic' one (thanks for this factlet google and wikipedia)
one that would be a USEFUl robot/companion as well could be costs of easily $20,000
that's kinda the price where people may buy it on the market.
developing something like that could easily take $100,000 USD
it'll be some time before we see true robot companions, but it will most likely be withing our lifetimes.
eh, might make a good theses project to make a robot that looks like a person and acts like a person (flirtatiously) study their reaction to it, raw some sort of conclusion, write 36,000 words, and there you go-phd.
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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  mikeccuk2005 on Thu May 19, 2011 7:37 pm

The life of the silicone has to do with amount of tin/platinum that are used as catalyst.
Source: http://www.artmolds.com/pdf/Silicone.pdf

Proper Use of Catalysts
Fast catalysts are available for each type of
silicone (tin or platinum), which can reduce
cure times significantly--in some cases to
less than 1-hour. With most silicones, there
is some latitude allowed in the catalyst
portion (adding more than the recommended
amount will speed cure times, as will using a
fast catalyst). However, there are limits to
the amount that may be added and adding
more than the recommended amount of
catalyst, or using a fast catalyst, will shorten
the life of the mold, making it more prone to
tearing or becoming brittle over time. A
catalyst-rich mold may last a year or so; one
with less catalyst should last for many
years.


I assumed that maker like Polytek's Platsil/Tinsil are ready mixed. I wonder what is the cure time(or at all) without the plat and tin. Significantly increase the life time.
We must find a mix with the slowest cure possible.

2nd solution would be to have another material on top of Tin cure silicone (cure with condensation). So to stop the over condensing effect of the silicone, must protect it with a layer.

3rd solution, Gelatine< I have no idea how this last
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVycOq1pPRo

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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Gilda on Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:05 pm

Well, When I thought about the silicone's problem, I wasn't thinking about melting. Despite it is a problem too!
But I've made friendship with people who owns silicone dolls for more than 10 year and they're in good shape. All deppends on silicone quality (cure times and catalyses as @mikeccuk2005 said) .
My real concern is about this :




When you put a silicone doll in direct contact with the ground their feet have the tendence to break.
So, all the robots feet and hands will need a reinforcement or their limbs will have to be made of a different material than the rest of the body.
One way I see is to make vinil hands and feet ( specialy feet must be reinforced or silicone will just break)... or at least make the palms of the hands and feet of vinyl or other resilient material.

One of my friends ( who owns a silicone doll) told me that it is essential to keep the doll's feet off the ground, as if it's feet touch the ground, silicone will split and break just like in the photo above.

I've also seen this material, but I don't know about it's resilience

http://www.makupartist.com/page/robot_skin.html
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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  mikeccuk2005 on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:36 pm

That is one reason I also suggest Gelatin. With gelatin you can add zinc oxide to toughen it up. They are reusable/repeatable , less to worry about when it get break.
This way would also be more affordable and better on the long run. You can even recycle the as a whole and remould into another.

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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Gilda on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:12 pm

mikeccuk2005 wrote:That is one reason I also suggest Gelatin. With gelatin you can add zinc oxide to toughen it up. They are reusable/repeatable , less to worry about when it get break.
This way would also be more affordable and better on the long run. You can even recycle the as a whole and remould into another.

Yep. But what is the durability of gelatine about friction and pressure on the feet?
I know about silicone that if feet simple touch the ground a doll can have a serious injury in his/her feet.
Recycling ability is nice, but durability is very important too or owners will have too much expenses just recycling and replacing skin.
Silicone skin is very human-like and also cheaper than other some other materials... so I was thinking about just make hands and feet from a more resistent material, so owners will have functional androids( able to walk and manipulate things with their hands), but also with human-like skin.
Indeed the main problem is their feet.
I've also sent an e-mail to a silicone doll manufacturer asking about the feet's issue in a hipotetical way.
Lets see if they answer.

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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  mikeccuk2005 on Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:18 pm

more durability add zinc oxide
more softness add glycerin



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GrzXItv4Sk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVycOq1pPRo


Lifelike maybe good for dolls but, for android and frequently moving part, you want a skin made from immortal cow's leather that almost never tear.

In the end both Gelatin mixture and Silicone are both semi-transparent, both require pigment and flocking.

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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Artilects rule! on Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:04 am

Hey guys, what do you think of collegian?
You know, that stuff injected in your forehead and gums/cheeks?
Is that useful in any way, maybe mixed with gelatin?

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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  mikeccuk2005 on Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:06 pm

Artilects rule! wrote:Hey guys, what do you think of collegian?
You know, that stuff injected in your forehead and gums/cheeks?
Is that useful in any way, maybe mixed with gelatin?

There is no need

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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Artilects rule! on Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:14 am

mikeccuk2005 wrote:
Artilects rule! wrote:Hey guys, what do you think of collegian?
You know, that stuff injected in your forehead and gums/cheeks?
Is that useful in any way, maybe mixed with gelatin?

There is no need
I only suggest it because it's a stiffening agent for skin, so I thought it might be good here.
If the gel is too soft or flabby (as in melting), you could inject some collegian.
I think liquid hand softer would be good for parts that are prone to crack, like her feet.

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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Discoman on Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:39 pm

Probably around the time the big research institution and big company androids (well, they are more telepresence machines) begin to be able to walk, however poorly, there will be a lot of mo ey ppured into researching this problem.

But until the $300,000 actroid begins to be able to even support its own weight, this will remain a big problem.

What about some other rubber or other durable compound?
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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Kthomp06 on Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:57 pm

Gilda wrote:Well, When I thought about the silicone's problem, I wasn't thinking about melting. Despite it is a problem too!
But I've made friendship with people who owns silicone dolls for more than 10 year and they're in good shape. All depends on silicone quality (cure times and catalyses as @mikeccuk2005 said) .
My real concern is about this :




When you put a silicone doll in direct contact with the ground their feet have the tendence to break.
So, all the robots feet and hands will need a reinforcement or their limbs will have to be made of a different material than the rest of the body.
One way I see is to make vinil hands and feet ( specialy feet must be reinforced or silicone will just break)... or at least make the palms of the hands and feet of vinyl or other resilient material.

One of my friends ( who owns a silicone doll) told me that it is essential to keep the doll's feet off the ground, as if it's feet touch the ground, silicone will split and break just like in the photo above.

I've also seen this material, but I don't know about it's resilience

http://www.makupartist.com/page/robot_skin.html

Hi, everyone I still alive and kicking.
I was reading this posting and it seems to me that silicon is the only thing out there right now that fits the build. I'm sure that some company will come out with a new product that with last longer and be tougher then what is out there now. Smooth-On makes a product that is called Dragon Skin and it temperature range is -70F to +300F per their technical bulletin. But the bulletin does not say how long it will last. The Dragon Skin can be tinted to flesh tones and feels more like skin then other silicones I have felt.

Dragon Skin by Smooth-On

Looking at the foot I noticed that there is no skeletal structure this is some thing that is required if you want to stand the doll up right. If you look at the skeletal structure of a human foot you will notice an arch that is tide together with tenons that give it a spring like effect. Kind of like the leaf spring on a car. The arch along with the toes distributes the weight of the body and also give you balance. If you try to stand only on your heals you will see what I mean, in know time you will be falling over. Also look at how they make prosthetic legs pictures and they will most likely have an arch system. If you look at the foot you will notice that the silicon ripped right at the end of the peg and most likely the doll fell face forward.

The hand has the same problem it ripped right at the end of its peg. If the inner structure was brought down to the finger tips it might not rip at all.

Just an observation.
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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Discoman on Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:10 pm

Well, don't the dolls use joints that require force to move and which lock into place? Constant bending forces on the libs would most likely hasten tearing of the silicone.
And as far as feet go, here is a basic design using easy to find or make parts, such as metal cables.
http://www.popsci.com/node/21633
While it isn't quite enough to be useful in an android or gynoid (to use the generic terms), it is a start that someone skilled can turn into a working foot for aiko or any others like her.
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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Gilda on Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:21 pm

Discoman wrote:Well, don't the dolls use joints that require force to move and which lock into place? Constant bending forces on the libs would most likely hasten tearing of the silicone.
And as far as feet go, here is a basic design using easy to find or make parts, such as metal cables.
http://www.popsci.com/node/21633
While it isn't quite enough to be useful in an android or gynoid (to use the generic terms), it is a start that someone skilled can turn into a working foot for aiko or any others like her.

Impressive feet.
Just an Idea for feet revestment: the same used in aesthetic posthetic feet:

http://www.ottobock.com/cps/rde/xchg/ob_com_en/hs.xsl/5128.html

I 'm in a hurry because of my Master course, so I couldn't read the site in details, but maybe the solution for harder revestments can be here.
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Re: maybe silicon is not the best material to build Aiko and other bots

Post  Discoman on Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:49 am

There is elastomeric gel... it is incredably stretchy and flexible.
No idea how it will hold up under a lot of stress, like on hands or feet, but as of now, even the most advanced androids and gynoids can't walk around.
Texture wise, elastomeric gel seems to have the same texture as flesh does in far too many anime and mangas. Generally written by someone who probably has no idea what actual flesh feels like. *joke* (but only the second sentance was the joke)
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